When characters go "emo"

[Pumpkinhead]

This doesn't pertain only to anime specifically, but I thought this might be an interesting topic (and I wasn't sure where else to put this).

In fiction there are times where either thanks to character development or stressful circumstances in the story the character(s) might get depressed or angsty. There are times when this is reasonable and understandable and others where they are being so upset that it just pisses the readers off. However when do you define when a character is indeed being, as many people like to call it, "emo"? It can be rather subjective depending on the reader... and I often feel it's a label people tend to throw around a lot just whenever a character is being sad or moody, even if they would be justified (or normal) for feeling that way. I was curious about other people's thoughts about this. When do you think is the point when a character is TRULY being a whiny hater and complainer, and when is a character depressed/angsty in a way where you feel sympathetic toward her/his situation?

[Pumpkinhead]

...And I just realized I probably should have put this in the Art folder *facepalm* Sorry, blanked on that one and forgot you could have topics about writing in there. Should I go ahead and move it or is it ok hanging out here in the Anime section?

[Feathers]

Naw, your good. It relates to anime in a way too. XD But I'm not a mod, so I really can't say. Anyway~

I have experiance actually writing for a character like this so I certainly looked into what made this type of character appealing and unappealing. First off, I think I should mention that no matter how well these characters are written, there will alway be someone to find them annoying. That just comes with the territory. Because there are many different kinds of people in the world who have gone through different lives.

However, for most fans to actually sympathize with the character, I find these qualities are helpful:

1. Not too cliche

This is kind of big because if the fans have seen the usual ways the character ends up being evil, then they're more annoyed than sympathetic. You can probably figure it out on your own as to which ones would be thought of as cliche, heh.

2. Not too little!

If a character becomes depressed over not having their favorite lunch, you can expect fans to be pretty annoyed with them. UNLESS it's meant to be comedic. XD

3. Not too much!

If the character is constantly having bad, horrific things happen to them for basically no reason at all, this will get annoying quick.

4. Don't make it awkward

Like I understand said character is all depressed, but I don't find it appealing when they have too many crying/meltdown scenes. Anybody else in agreement with this or am I alone? XD

5. No spineless characters allowed!

If the character is depressed, writers often will make up for their sad mood with something like an interesting ability to fight with or just have them with a nice personality they only show to the outside. IDK, just something that makes the character seem strong. Because if they don't look like it, then they'll be just as appealing as the princess in her tower character.

And that's pretty much all I can think of for now. XD

[Rogo]

Um... this topic is a 'little' out of place as it is now?

Maybe we can get examples going in here of good and bad angst in anime?

Let's start with the most obvious bad example - Shinji from Evangelion. Now when I first started watching the show I tried to defend this character. His rather never really pays attention to him for years and then suddenly summons him up only to say 'hey son, you go fight that evil monster for the good of humanity now, kay bye.' and is ultimately just a tool in his father's game. His lack of social understanding and his angst is totally understandable.

Problem? SHINJI DOESN'T CHANGE.

Here's the fun thing with angst, it's a great plot-writing tool if your using it to show a character rising from the flames so to speak. Great example is Lelouch who has a couple of angst moments, but always rises from them in the most triumphant way possible. Shinji is a character in a show that's post-existential, meaning by the tenants of the show's philosophy, that ain't gonna happen. He's just gonna keep sitting around wondering about his existence until he hits nirvana or something.

The audience HATED this for obvious reasons. Except all those people who called it total genius but whatever, let's move on to another much hated 'emo' character - Sasuke from Naruto.

Sasuke's problem is two fold.

1. He wouldn't SHUT UP about his problems. If your character doesn't do anything but whine about his tragic past, even having your family slaughtered when your were very young can becoming unsympathetic if that's all they talk about. He still does it to this day. That said the BIGGER problem is...

2. His angst lead him to do STUPID things. You can use angst as a great tool for turning a character evil but it literally has to happen as quickly as it can without being forced. Having your entire family slaughtered CAN be enough for you to turn evil and try to murder everyone you once knew dear - but not eight years after the fact.

Basically if you want your character to have angst, do so but make sure you have an end-goal. How are they going to come out of it and what effect will it have on them in the meantime.

Oh and fun fact, we don't care about angst over characters and events we never saw. Sasuke, Sasuke, Sasuke.

[Feathers]

Excellent points! I knew I was leaving out some stuff in my post. LOL And sorry for being a bit off topic. I didn't have too many anime examples to throw out.

I heavily agree about 1. Especially since if the character was real and around normal people(ignoring any special worldly abilities they have too) most would not take them too kindly if they just kept blabbling on about their pains in life.

With number 2, I actually find this rather hilarious to watch in anime. It makes me laugh when I see characters who have waiting XX number of years before actually deciding to go "emo". Like, "You just thought of this NOW?" XD

Ah, but the main thing I want to expand further on is your last statement on how we don't care about things that we never physcially saw. To begin, I agree with this. However, I'm curious to know how a writer is supposed to explain an event that happened in the past without actually going all the way back there at the beginning of the series? Would flashbacks be a good idea? I've only seen bits of Naruto so I don't really know how they present Sasuke's past.

[Pumpkinhead]

Apr 30, 2012 4:02:00 GMT -5 Rogo said:

Um... this topic is a 'little' out of place as it is now?

Maybe we can get examples going in here of good and bad angst in anime?

Heh, yeah, that's what I was thinking might be the case, sorry... but I'm glad it still worked out and morphed into a topic that can be discussed here

Thanks for the tips Feathers, I found that helpful. And interesting points Rogo! Especially what you said about a character rising from the flames. I didn't really think of it that way before...using angst to serve a specific purpose, as an obstacle or temporary phase where they eventually come out of it triumphant. Rather than just having it there just for the sake of...having it there. That's probably when angst is at its worst, when a character becomes mad and depressed for no good reason other than as a plot device to create tension. Not only is that bad writing, but then yeah, then you also just hate the character instead of feel sorry for them.

Now I just need to expand my anime palette so I can contribute more to the discussion XD I can think of a bunch of good/bad western animation examples, but from what few anime shows I've seen I’m drawing a blank :/

As for your question, Feathers, I’m not totally sure. I’ll let the more experienced writer/anime reviewer answer that one. I think it could be theoretically possible to have an angsty character and feel bad for them even if you didn't see the event/characters that affected them, though I can't think of a specific example so maybe I'm wrong about that. But what I thought Rogo was implying is that it's not necessarily not seeing what happened that makes it a problem, it's the character constantly bringing it up when you've never seen it.

[Rogo]

I will add that you can have a character slip into angst and not come out of it - buuuut that's when a character slips into serious depression and has to be handled VERY well to come off as not annoying and instead tragic and poignant.

Probably a bad indication that I can't really think of a great example off the top of my head.

[Feathers]

Yeah, I know what you mean there, Rogo. I can't really find any good examples either. And thanks for clarifying, Pumpkinhead. It's like when you hear someone not shut up about a sad TV show that you haven't seen before. You can't relate, so stop brining it up and whining. XD

Here's something else I was thinking too. Agree or disagree however you wish. I think having a character go angst is less annoying when you actually have then freakin' do something interesting because of it. Like when they go angst, I find I'm less bored/annoyed if the character is IDK using that extra boost of angst to kill another character I absolutely despise. But if they're just sitting around being angst in their own worlds, that's annoying... Get what I mean?

If someone with better English skills could expand on this, that would be great. XD

[Pumpkinhead]

So you mean like having a character desire revenge as a result of their angst vs. becoming antisocial and sulking in a corner? I getcha. Though...I think depending on how that is pulled off, losing it and becoming a murderer can be potentially worse. Rogo mentioned in the When Good Guys Go Bad topic how a character became evil in Guilty Crown because of something traumatic and it not making any sense for his character, which destroyed the show's suspension of disbelief.

...And...to go back to what I said before about not showing someone's tragic past, after mulling about it some more I think I'm going to make an amendment and say that in a visual medium, that sort of thing is expected and required to get an emotional reaction from the audience. After all we go into a tv show expecting it to show, not tell, and so if characters just chat through scenes and explain why their past is horrible then at best that's going to come off as boring. At some point you'd have to show some sort of flashback or memory, even if it's very brief. It's different compared to a novel, where you can have a character describe an event, choke about it, and let your imagination do the work there. It's a different medium with different strengths and limitations, so you can get away with something like that (and in a novel that may be better), but in anime (or any tv show) its strength lies in how it visually presents a story.

[Feathers]

Eh, it might not exactly be revenge though. I can't really describe it. It's like the character going angst allows them to be a better asset on the battlefeild or something like that. I so suck at explaining... XD

On the revenge thing though. I think it's the most common reaction to horrible events in anime, however, I also think it's the easiest to screw up in anime. Hell, I don't even know how to write it properly, so I don't really expect much when these characters do end up going on killing sprees for revenge. XD If anyone could name a good example, I'd love to hear it...or read it. XD

Flashbacks like that are fine, I think. It gets the point across and the emotion so you can feel for the character. It also doesn't overwhelm the reader with feelings of depression or guilt. Like seriously, I know some people who actually felt guilty towards certain anime characters, even though they obviously had no way of preventing his or her fate... I'm not quite sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but my personal judgement says it's not really healthy.

[Pumpkinhead]

May 4, 2012 1:31:14 GMT -5 Feathers said:

Eh, it might not exactly be revenge though. I can't really describe it. It's like the character going angst allows them to be a better asset on the battlefeild or something like that. I so suck at explaining... XD

So do you mean they like, become more badass? (Lol I could live with that kind of reaction from a character)

May 4, 2012 1:31:14 GMT -5 Feathers said:

Flashbacks like that are fine, I think. It gets the point across and the emotion so you can feel for the character. It also doesn't overwhelm the reader with feelings of depression or guilt. Like seriously, I know some people who actually felt guilty towards certain anime characters, even though they obviously had no way of preventing his or her fate... I'm not quite sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but my personal judgement says it's not really healthy.

Um...could you elaborate on the guilt part a little bit? I mean what kind of writing exactly is it that you say causes the viewers to feel depressed or guilty about the characters (that you say flashbacks don't do)? Do you mean that the characters talking about their lives in a depressing way/acting depressed can disturb the audience more than a flashback would? Just looking for clarification :)

[Feathers]

Yes, badass! XD That's the word I was looking for. LOL

And um, like. Okay, using Elfen Lied cuz I can't think of a better example. Basically, Elfen Lied potrayed the whole human race as evil and horrible just because of what happened to the dicloni(SP?). So basically what I am talking about is angst towards a whole race or group of people. IE: If a character was heavily angst because gay people beat them up as a child. Kind of get what I mean?

[Rogo]

Yes and that's why Elfen Lied is Fliping awful.

[Pumpkinhead]

OH

Gotcha. So the kind of angst that tries to get you to sympathize with prejudice, then. Yeah...I don't think that's good either, lol.

[Rogo]

No, no trying to understand why people might be prejudice can and has been done very well.

Elfen Lied is not one of those examples.